Melissa Anzman (00:00): This is the launch yourself podcast with Melissa Anzman episode. Number 12, featuring Tamara Murray.

Melissa Anzman (00:08): Hello. Hello, and welcome to the launch yourself podcast, career, business, and brand advice to help you be seen, make an impact and deliver at your maximum potential. And now here's your host, Melissa. Anzman

Melissa Anzman (00:27): Welcome to the launch yourself podcast. I'm your host, Melissa Anzman today. We are going to be chatting with Tamara Marie. Tamara is a mentor strategic communicator and full time traveler. She spent the past decade helping social change nonprofits and other do gooders with their communications. Eventually becoming a vice president at one of the nation's top public interest communication firms. Before the age of 30, it was her dream career until the nine to five blues, a Ted talk and a conversation with her financial planner set her on an unexpected course in October of 2013, Tamara and her husband set out from their home in San Francisco with just two backpacks and their 15 year old dog, their destination, Latin America on their sabbatical, which they've done their leap year. Tamara is soaking up Latin American culture meeting, interesting people and taking her Spanish to the next level.

Melissa Anzman (01:21): She's also experimenting with new projects in an effort to reimagine what work in life could look like currently in Argentina, she's written her first book called awesome supervisory skills, seven lessons for young first time managers she's teaching online classes and is researching her next project. Please welcome Tamara to the show. Welcome to the podcast, Tamara. Thanks, Melissa. Good to be here. I'm so glad to have you. And I'm even more glad that Mac, our mutual friend introduced us and put me, or I should say put you on my radar so that we were able to do a podcast, your story. You're so interesting and you've so many exciting launches that we could dig into. Thanks. So, yeah, so the, you know, I always start our conversations with the definition of launch yourself. So watch yourself is a specific point when you purposely decide to take action to fulfill your maximum potential in your career business or brand.

Melissa Anzman (02:20): And as I mentioned briefly, you have so many different launches that we could talk about, but my favorite one of yours if, if we can play favorites for a minute, is your travel Leap Year or your sabbatical that you are going on or in at the moment? I think it's so interesting of what you did and how you came about it and what you're doing during this time of new experiences and discovery. So if you could, could you tell us a little bit about this launch? Absolutely. And I think, I think that your listeners will be interested because most people

Tamara Murray (03:00): Don't start a launch by basically turning their back on everything that they've built in their career and in some ways that is one of the things that I did, but I had a good reason to do it and a few things it's really inspired it. So a couple, a couple of things kind of brought brought this sleepier to a head if you will. And the first is I watched this Ted talk a while back, which I encourage everyone to watch and I'm happy to pass the link along to you so you can include it on the launch yourself site, but it's a Ted talk by this man named Stefan Sagmeister I think I'm saying his name, right. And it's about the power of time off. And he has this design studio in New York where every seven years they will close it for a year and take no customers.

Tamara Murray (04:01): It's really funny. They have, he shows the out of office email reply that says like, we'll get back to you next year. It's very funny. Yeah, I know. And, but he talks about it because one of the things that he found in his design studio is that all of their work would start to look the same, you know, they would make, they would be creating the same things, making the same types of design recommendations to clients and their work would just start to not be as creative, not as exciting. And they weren't bringing what they could to their work. And so they would take a year off and experiment with things and then come back, you know, with new ideas and a new kind of energy to their work. The other thing that spurred this on a much more personal level was planning for retirement, which is something that I believe everyone should do.

Tamara Murray (05:02): And one of the things that that financial planners ask you to do when planning for retirement is they ask you to envision what your life looks like. And my husband and I really decided that, you know, what we want to be doing when we're retired is traveling, but you know, people who are our age, they're not going to retire until much later in life. And so we thought, you know, are we really gonna want to travel like that? When we're 75 80? Why don't we travel now? Why don't we, you know, switching back to the Ted talk, why don't we reenergize think about new ideas and use that as a way to think about how we want to reimagine or work in our life. Yeah. I mean, I think that's such a great idea as far as

Melissa Anzman (05:58): First of all, let's reignite the way we see things and look at the world and what better way to do that than taking a step back and evaluating that combined with, do I need to wait? Is it, does it make sense to wait to do the things or live the life that we want to live? Even, especially, I should say, because that's what we're told we should wait for is when you retire is when you get to have fun, right? When you retire is when you have the money to sit back and enjoy all the things you've built throughout your career. How did you guys, as a whole, knowing that this is the direction that you wanted to go and having these ideas ignited, how did you do it? How did you sort of step out and go completely against the grain to take that leap into your leap?

Tamara Murray (06:47): Well, it took a lot of planning. I'll say that it took, I would say, you know, one third planning one and two thirds just like sheer, you know, recklessness, bravery, just, you know, the, that feeling that you get, where you just have to close your eyes and jump in and not think about it too much. But the planning was really key. And the planning being that, you know, we, we needed to plan financially for it. And we needed to think about the timing. So, you know, even though we didn't want to wait as in, we didn't want to wait until retirement. We, you know, we did think about, you know, when would be the right time to leave our jobs you know, when would be the right time in terms of making sure that we've saved enough things like that. So there was quite a bit of planning ahead of time.

Melissa Anzman (07:49): Can you share what your planning sort of runway looks like or how long it took to get all those pieces aligned from idea to reality?

Tamara Murray (07:59): Yeah. So I think one of the first things that we did and, you know, luckily I am married to an accountant, so I love it. I know. So, you know, he very wisely, you know, put together this budget spreadsheet, but you don't have to be an accountant to think about, you know, what if you had, you know, all the time in the world, how would you be spending your time? It's something everyone should think about anyway. And, and then you start to think about, okay, well, what does that, what does that actually take? You know? Okay, well, I know I wanna have three meals a day, right. Right. I know I want to have three meals a day. I know I want to have a roof over my head, but then you think, okay, well I know that you know, I'm going to want to you know, spend my time doing a lot of reading.

Tamara Murray (09:00): Okay. Well, what kind of reading do we mean? Are we going to be reading books that will expand our thinking about how we spend our time? Do we want to learn, you know, new languages, or are we going to be spending money on language school? So you really start to just kind of envision and dream a little right about how you can be spending your time, how you want to be experimenting and learning. And then we just tried our best to put some realistic numbers around it. And that's how we started to then say, okay, if this is our savings goal, how long is it going to take us to save that much? Okay. And that's when we leave. So a lot of it was was, you know, all about crunching the numbers. But a lot of it is also about, you know, envisioning how you could be spending your time differently, which is, I think something that you don't even need a year long sabbatical to do. And I'd really encourage a lot of people to try doing that.

Melissa Anzman (10:08): Absolutely. You know, I'm, I'm a huge fan of traveling and I love it and I live for it and all of those things. And what I found is since becoming my own boss, becoming an entrepreneur, I don't necessarily have the time or the money to travel. Like I did when I was in a stable nine to five, which people laugh at me about that because they're like, but you make your own hours and you should have all this time. And my response is, yeah, but if I'm not working, I'm not getting paid. Right. If I'm not helping people or coaching people, then you know, my business model kind of falls apart and I'm working on it. Everyone doesn't need to get up in arms. I'm working on creating more passive income, but you know, I, I'm not even two years in yet. And so obviously I have to put in the time, but one of the questions that always comes to my mind when I'm looking at these things, and it sounds like you have it figured out is first it's a two part question I'm going to warn you.

Melissa Anzman (11:03): So the first question on it is how do you change your mindset to be okay with doing not nothing but different type of work, right? Then, then you are sort of ingrained to do when we get wrapped into a, here's what I do for a living, even if it's for yourself. And the second question to that, which I'll ask after you finish, this is, you know, how do you start? Like, what's that first step of, you know, getting set up? How do you create your plan of this is where I'm going to go. These are the things I'm going to focus on. These are the places I'm going to travel. So those are sort of two big questions. So if you could answer the first one, that would be great. And then we'll hop onto the second. Okay. And the first one was about,

Tamara Murray (11:49): About kind of getting into that mindset. Yeah. I've really off from,

Melissa Anzman (11:54): I have to produce and deliver work to, you know, I'm here to take time and work in a different way or, you know, have different types of outcomes through my

Tamara Murray (12:05): Experiences. Yeah. Well, I have to say that's actually something that I'm struggling with quite a bit. It is, you know, I, I like many people before me and many people who I work with and I'm friends with you know, I grew up believing that, you know, your job and success, you know, the way that you get to success is you get good grades in school so that you can go to college so that you can get a great entry level, job and advance quickly and, you know, put in time and, you know, have a great title. And that's how you show your success. And so when you are trying to think or rethink what your work life could look like, it's really difficult to turn that off. And one of the things that that has really helped is just totally changing our environment so that we're not in that pressure so much where you know, it still exists because I keep in touch with people.

Tamara Murray (13:18): I, you know, I'm still very active on LinkedIn and Facebook and I'm keeping track of what everyone's doing. But but one of the things that has really helped me is there are these two women who I follow online, they talk about very different topics, but one, her name is Penelope trunk and she is a career and life coach. And another woman, her name is Laura Vanderkam. And she gives lots of advice about work and money and life. And the two of them, both, they talk about it in different ways, but they talk about how the nature of work is changing and how, if you want to have more flexibility in your life, you have to basically let go of some of the stability, meaning a nine to five job in order to gain that flexibility. So being able to be comfortable living what some of them call a 10 99 life, right? Maybe you do have, you know, a steady paycheck from something, but you also have side jobs and you're never just putting all of your eggs in one basket because then, you know, if you want to work less, then you can cut back on one, you know, things like that. Or if you, you know, really need to earn more, you can devote more time. So really changing our environment has helped us to kind of just let go of some of those ideas, although it's still pretty difficult.

Melissa Anzman (15:09): Now, are you still working while you're on this leap here? Or are you still earning income?

Tamara Murray (15:15): We are in a, in a couple of ways. So I'll, I'll say my husband is taking on some projects of his own. He is experimenting with doing with building websites that generate traffic and bring in revenue through SEO. And he's been partnering with a number of different people who do this. So that's something he's been working on. On my end, you know, I wasn't really sure what I wanted to be doing. And I tried I basically asked myself, what is it that I have to offer the world, which is a very scary question to ask yourself, especially if you kind of come up short and you're like, Ooh, I don't know immediately what I have to offer, but it is a big question. But the two things that came to me were I'm a good trainer and I'm a good manager. So one of the things that I tried was developing some online trainings through Skillshare. And another thing that I tried doing was writing a book. And so both of those things, do you bring in some income all at, although they don't bring in enough for us to live on. So I think it'll be an interesting experiment to see if we can grow those into something we could live on, or if those could just be some really helpful side projects to help bolster our income.

Melissa Anzman (16:56): Yeah. I definitely want to come back to those, but I want to, I want to make sure we answer my second big question, which I should have lumped them together. But which is, you know, how do you actually get the plan together? Where are you going to go? Where are you going to stop? How, how did you, you know, make it actually happen? Well? So

Tamara Murray (17:18): There were a couple of things that influenced that influence how we did it. But I'll, I'll, I'll share that. And some other tips you know, the big thing that influenced where we went was both cost, meaning we wanted to go places where our dollar would go further. And as a result, we decided to focus on Latin America because the exchange rate would be helpful for us. But we also on some certain areas because we brought our dog with us. And so one of the things that some folk might know from traveling with a dog is that some countries will quarantine an animal, whether a dog or a cat or whatever, when you come into the country. And so we wanted to focus on going to places that would not require that in terms of deciding where we wanted to go.

Tamara Murray (18:19): Our approach to travel is what some people have dubbed slow travel. And what that means is that, you know, if you're on a two week vacation and you go to a country, you are literally every day trying to go to as many places as possible. You're hitting all the tourists destinations. You might spend the night in a different city every night, but with slow travel, you're actually saying, Hey, I want to, I really want to get to know Paris, or I really want to get to know buenos aires. And you're going to spend two, three, maybe even four months there, if you have the visa to do it. And you're going to live there, you're going to shop where the local shop, you're going to get your hair cut, where the locals get their haircut. You're going to learn the language you're going to get immersed. And so the way that we decided where we wanted to go, as we said, you know, where do we envision? We'd feel comfortable staying for three months versus, Oh, what, you know, shiny new city do we want to vacation? And

Melissa Anzman (19:34): I love that. And so you're able to get more of the culture and the everyday lifestyle, but you also are in there. You're not committed for a year. So you're able to move on once you feel like that's, you know, been observed.

Tamara Murray (19:50): That's absolutely right. And, you know, we've found that even being in a place for a month in a particular city for a month is a pretty good amount of time. We spent three months in Mexico. We spent three months, no two months in Chilè. And we're just now starting our time in Argentina. And it's, it's a really great way to, you know, you meet people, you experience things that you wouldn't, if you were just, you know, in the tourist center of a city, you know, going on tours or visiting museums. So it's, it's a different type of experience.

Melissa Anzman (20:31): Absolutely. And are you at, are you staying in places like through VRVO or, you know, places like that, is that how you're finding your housing?

Tamara Murray (20:39): You know, we've found most of our housing through Airbnb, which has been really helpful, although we'll one piece and, and this I will say is a Testament to the, the power and interest of travel is when we were in Mexico, there was this man who owned a bagel shop. It's actually called the bagel shop and yeah, and he he's from Chilè, but he lived in the United States. He missed Chilean bread, which is kind of a chewy bread. And so when he, he, with us, he loved bagels because they reminded him of Chilean bread. He moved to Mexico cause that's where his wife was from. And they opened a bagel shop in Mexico that now all the ex pats go to cause they miss bagels. And when when, you know, so we were there, we lived around the corner from it and would go there pretty often.

Tamara Murray (21:37): And you know, he was like, Oh, you know, talking to us about our trip. And he said, you should really go to Chilè I'm from Valparavìso. And we said, Oh, you know, we were actually thinking about spending some time there. And when we were looking and we were like, okay, let's do it. Let's go to Chilè, we'll leave in Valparaìso for a little while. And he's like, you know, I have some friends who still live there, maybe one of them can help you find a place. And he eventually connected us with a friend of his, from college who happened to have a big apartment with two spare rooms. And one there was a man from Russia living there who has, who is traveling the world to study Bicrum yoga. And then there was another room for us. So, you know, just you, the way that you come across things and the opportunities and the people that, that you come across are so interesting. I love that story.

Melissa Anzman (22:42): That is so interesting. And, you know, you hear about that all the time of, Oh yeah. I was just traveling and ran into this person and this connection led to another, but I tend not to believe stories very much. No.

Tamara Murray (22:57): Yeah.

Melissa Anzman (22:58): I'm glad to hear one firsthand actually worked out that that gives, that gives everybody a lot of hope, I think. Yeah. You know, I, I could ask you a hundred questions on that and I, and I totally well, but I do want to touch back on how you're earning an income and some of those things that you are experimenting with and how they've worked or how they have it, you know, what, what you've learned from a business perspective with some of the ideas that you guys have been noodling around and putting into action.

Tamara Murray (23:26): Yeah. Well, and one of the things that I, I have been thinking a lot about is I'm a big believer in people Myers Briggs types, they're their personality types. I don't necessarily believe that it's destiny, but I think it's not wise to ignore them. So what type are you? So I am E S T J. So in a nutshell people who are ESTJs love structure, they love order. They're all about being like a model citizen. And as a result, you know, they can have a really hard time thinking outside the box. Sometimes they're really rigid. But you know, those are the downsides. The upsides are that we're very hardworking and, and very diligent and beautiful and all those good things. But so I, I share that because one of the things that, so I talked about how we're trying to reimagine how we can structure our, our, our work life differently.

Tamara Murray (24:34): And one of the things about people who are of my personality type and, and similar types that have the S and the T are that, I'm sorry, the S and the J are that I'm doing things independently that are a little more entrepreneurial don't come as naturally to us. And as a result, it has actually been pretty challenging to come up with things that feel really original or, or really outside of the box. And so one of the things that I'm just realizing in doing this is that maybe, maybe this isn't me, maybe I am the kind of person who is more suited for you know, working in a steady nine to five job. But I'm still exploring that. But I say that because you know, you never know until you try. And that has been, one of the challenges is just thinking about, you know, I mean, I'm, I know lots of my father, for example, as someone who is very entrepreneurial and every day, he writes me like a business idea, whether it's things like, Hey, you know, like this town doesn't have any street signs, you could get local businesses to sponsor.

Tamara Murray (26:03): I'm like, Oh my gosh, how do you even come up with this?

Tamara Murray (26:08): Whereas, you know, that, that doesn't come as naturally to me. And so I share that because if anyone is thinking about, you know, how can I become more entrepreneurial or how can I take that kind of leap? I'm not trying to discourage anyone from doing it, but I think knowing what your strengths and weaknesses are, are really important to think about going in. I also want to share a quick example about something that I, that didn't work that I hope would be a, a useful example for your listeners. So one of the, one of the first projects that I took on was teaching a class on Skillshare, which if you haven't heard of Skillshare, it is kind of an e-learning website where anyone who, you know, has a skill can create a class and, and have people learn that skill.

Tamara Murray (27:14): So, Oh, I know how to edit photos using Photoshop. I will teach you how to do that. Or, you know, I know how to create great marketing plans. I'll teach you how to do that. So I created one about how to give an awesome media interview. Hopefully, hopefully I'm taking my own advice. You are fantastic. You're fantastic. Thank you. So I created this class and you know, set out to market it, and I got a decent response rate, but you know, some people on Skillshare have like thousands of students. I do not have thousands of students, but I'm still happy and people are taking the class and that's fine, but I was really hoping to get more engagement in the class because one of the things that I ask students to do is to actually complete a mock media interview.

Tamara Murray (28:12): And so everyone was, you know, reviewing the lessons, which is good, but I really wanted them to put the lessons to use. And of course, you know, after creating it and I was like, Oh my gosh, who's going to film themselves, practicing for a media interview and put it on the internet. So again, like, it's not until you try things that you really realize whether they'll work on that, but in order to try and encourage people to engage in some way, I said, okay, you don't want to film yourself and put yourself on the internet. I get it. Why don't you just like write a soundbite, just a single soundbite that you think would be good in an interview. And the person who I think has, you know, for everyone who participates all share feedback and I'll do a drawing and whoever wins will get a one hour consult, you know, where I'll help coach you on your media interview style. And you'll get to see shots of Argentina. Cause that's where I am now. Like what, who wouldn't want that? Right.

Tamara Murray (29:26): So, so I post it and I give people two weeks to participate. Cause I was like, two weeks is good. It's like enough time, but it's not so long that they forget it. And it gives me enough time to market it. And I'm really excited because, you know, I think this is going to get me all these new students and people are going to be posting soundbites and there'll be all this activity and no one did it at all. And yeah, it was really too bad. I still have new people signing up for the class. It's not like, you know, no one is interested in the class. But it just didn't work. And at first I was really down about it. I was like, Oh my gosh, what was I, what did I do? This is really, this is not good. This is embarrassing and I was really upset about it.

Tamara Murray (30:23): But then I was like, you know, it's not that bad now I've learned, okay, well now I know people don't want to put videos of themselves doing immediate fake media interviews on the internet, which I should have known anyway. But so now I know that, and now I also know that, you know, the people who take this class, they probably just want the information and then want to use it. They're not there to create a community and, you know, bounce ideas off of each other because this is not the giving immediate interview is not the kind of skill that, you know, people aren't necessarily going to be talking with each other about the way that say, you know, Hey, I want to figure out how to create better trainings or, Hey, I want career advice. You know media interviews are a little more cut and dry. So I say that because it, you know, both it I'm learning, but also I am learning to give myself permission to fail and not be miserable about it and just move on and try something different, which I think is maybe not new to the business community at large. But for, for a lot of people who are just trying something on their own for the very first time, it can be pretty debilitating. The first time and I am here to say, I survived, you will feel

Melissa Anzman (32:01): Absolutely any. No, I think I don't even think there's a caveat around that. I think whenever it doesn't work for most personality types it, if it hurts you like it's offensive, you know, hurts your feelings and you, and you get wrapped up. And I mean, I've, I've shared with the community and I'm happy to share again, of, you know, when I first launched my business, like I think it was week three or something. I was like, here's a course I'm going to give. And there were crickets because I think I had five people on my mailing list and no one outside of the corporate world in my specific companies knew who I was. And I was so bummed. I'm like, don't, you know, this is such a great offering. And part of, part of, you know, tweaking and learning and probably what goes along so well in the vein of what you're doing during your gap year is being able to take that idea and concept, figure out why it didn't work, what worked about it and what you learned and making the next go or pivot better. And you know, that isn't that such a great arching, you know, overarching tool for what you're doing this year with your husband of what we were doing, wasn't working for us or it wasn't going to work long term. So let's learn new things now while we can and apply them for the rest of our lives instead of waiting until we retire to heed those lessons.

Tamara Murray (33:31): Totally. No, I absolutely agree. And I mean, I think, you know, thank you for sharing that experience about the first class you taught, because I think, I don't know about you, but I think even just after one or two experiences like that, you kind of learn to have thicker skin and, and you just learn, okay, it's fine. I'm just going to try something different. I'm going to learn from it. And a lot of really great ideas have come from that. And usually we don't hear, we don't hear the evolution, we just see the success in the end. And, and we say that it can easy when that's not always the truth. So

Melissa Anzman (34:13): Yeah, no, it's not. And you know, one thing I've found, I have the privilege of working with a lot of, you know, big name entrepreneurs, you know, all the people, you know, online, those big names and, and working with them on the backend of their business. And part of what surprised me, or I should say shocked me. It was really shocked me when I first started doing it is true reality. And what's sort of presented right in every hotel in between and part of why I'm so excited about the podcast and sharing stories like yours with people is that's not how lot just go. That's not how businesses go. It's not one day I'm going to put my shingle up and go. It's not one day I'm going to decide to travel. And I leave tomorrow on my trip. Yeah. It takes time. There's a lot of information involved in it and a lot of planning and that's hopefully you know, what people are going to get from this of you, you had an awakening and an idea that you found and cultivated through these resources, the Ted talk, and also some retirement planning.

Melissa Anzman (35:18): But the important part is you did something with that and it, and it wasn't necessarily tomorrow. You didn't get, you didn't leave tomorrow. Although some of us wish we could. Yeah. but it was, you know, figuring out how we can live the life we want to live and sustain that and learn from it and grow from it each

Tamara Murray (35:38): Time. Yeah. No, I think that's absolutely one of the things. It was actually my dad, he, he sent me a quote a while back and I can, I can send it to you. I can't recite it perfectly by heart, but it's a quote that basically says that when, when you commit yourself to something things can happen that you never imagined would happened. And if you, if you don't commit to it, if you hesitate and only kind of go halfway in it's never going to blossom the way that you wanted it to. And so there's just something really magical about being bold and committing yourself to taking a course of action and sticking with it. For example, you know, I, I mentioned one of the projects I'm working on was I decided to write a book about management and you know, I was really surprised by the reception that I got because it was really positive.

Tamara Murray (36:45): And you know, I'm, I've been really excited about the feedback that I've been getting from people and someone who I know who is a friend of mine that I worked with a long time ago. She forwarded it to someone who does professional development for her company and said, Hey, you know if you are looking for a resource for new managers, you know, you should take a look at this book. And I was like, wow. You know, I never would have thought that that would have been a possibility. I love that there's a person at this company whose job it is to be in charge of professional development. That's something I would be very interested in at some point, you know, I love doing stuff like that. You know, I want to talk to this woman about how she got to be their professional development officer.

Tamara Murray (37:42): You know, I share this because it's, it's like all these little things that happen when you just kind of go it all in and be open to whatever opportunities might reveal themselves. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. And so but if I had not, if I had been like, Ooh, I don't know if I feel like I have expertise to write this and you know, maybe I'll do it, but just as a blog post, you know, I don't, I would not have had that happen. Right. so it's just another reason to, you know, think about what you could be doing and just take action to do it. Love it. I could talk to you for hours about this and, and traveling and you

Melissa Anzman (38:36): And I are probably going to hop offline and have a great conversation, maybe podcast version two. But I do want to keep my commitment to our listeners and keep it in the time frame. So my last class question for you would be what is the best piece of advice you'd give for people who are looking to take a leap year or who are looking to travel while figuring out exploring something new?

Tamara Murray (39:04): My biggest piece of advice is you're going to be afraid. It's natural. If you're not afraid at all, I would be like, go out. You're, you're amazing. You're a very rare person. You're going to be afraid. That's totally normal. And I'll actually share with you the thing that someone shared with me, which is you know, as I was about to leave I was completing an exit interview with the CFO of a company that I was working with. And she shared with me, and I never knew that she had done the exact same thing. Only instead of taking a year, she took three years. She said, Oh, yes, she had initially said that she wanted to take a year. And she took it and it turned into three years. And he, or she is the CFO of a very successful organization and a really smart woman.

Tamara Murray (40:04): And, you know, she and I, I, she told me that when she did it, you know, the people, her family was like, well, you know, who's going to hire you after this. And she said, I want to work for people who think this is interesting, who think that the fact that I am taking this time and I'm seeing the world and learning new cultures, learning new languages, you know, learning more about myself, I want to work with people who think that's interesting. And so that's, who's going to hire me when I get back. And so I, I say that because you may think that it feels like something that's impossible. It may feel like something that only other people get to do. But there are, are, there are people out there who will find this interesting, and you will have a job when you get back, either one that you find or one that you create.

Melissa Anzman (41:10): Love it. Perfect. Ending there. Tamara, thank you so much for coming on the show. We are going to have a lot of show notes, but if you could just help people where they can find you online, that would be great.

Tamara Murray (41:21): Absolutely. And thank you for having me. You can find more about our travel blog and take a look at some of my projects at helloI'mTamara.com. Fabulous. Thanks again. And until next time, everybody, I hope you enjoyed today's episode with Tamara Marie. I was so excited to have the opportunity to speak with her. It was the first time we actually met and we are fast friends. I'm happy to say since the taping of this we've chatted even more. And I'm so excited to have her as part of my group. And hopefully you feel the same as well. If you'd like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to launchyourself.co/session12. Again, that's launchyourself.Co/session12. And if you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe on Stitcher and iTunes and leave us a great review until next time.

Melissa Anzman (42:16): Thanks for listening to the launch yourself podcast. Join the conversation at www.launchyourself.co.