Melissa Anzman (00:00): This is a launch yourself podcast with Melissa Anzman episode. Number 21, featuring Terry Starbucker Saint Marie.

Melissa Anzman (00:08): Hello. Hello. Hello, and welcome to the launch yourself podcast, career, business, and brand advice to help you be seen, make an impact and deliver at your maximum potential. And now here's your host, Melissa Anzman.

Melissa Anzman (00:27): Welcome to the launch yourself podcast. I'm your host, Melissa Anzman today. We are going to be chatting with Terry Starbucker Saint Marie. He is a writer, consultant and startup investor living in Portland, Oregon, before moving to the Rose city. In 2010, he had a successful 23 year tenure as an executive in the cable television industry. Terry has extensive experience in business operations, customer care strategy and financial management. For the past eight years, he's also published a popular blog featuring his more human leadership philosophy terrystarbucker.com and was recently cited in inc magazine as one of the top 100 leadership and management experts. He's also the co founder of a new online magazine focused on entrepreneurs, built oregon.com, which we'll be watching this fall. He's the president of the Portland chapter of the social media club and investor in the Oregon angel fund and angel, Oregon, and is on the board of Oregon entrepreneurs network. Please welcome my friend Terry to the show. I'd like to welcome Terry Starbucker Saint Marie to the show. Terry was actually introduced to me by a good friend of the show, Mac Prichard communications. And as soon as I got to know what Perry did and more about him and what he found for a, which is all about more human leadership, which he will talk to us about, I knew that he would be a great dad for the launch yourself podcast and welcome to the show, Terry.

Terry St. Marie (01:56): So thank you. It's good to be here. Happy to be chatting today.

Melissa Anzman (02:02): And so as we start every podcast, I'd love for you to talk to us a little bit more about the launch that you'd like to share with us today.

Terry St. Marie (02:11): Oh my life. Yes. Well, you know, I, I it's like how many launches can I talk about

Melissa Anzman (02:19): Obviously everything's interconnected?

Terry St. Marie (02:23): Well, the biggest launch I'm working on right now is and this is what I'm pretty excited about actually, Melissa it's it's a new online magazine that a partner and I are going to be launching in a couple of months called built Oregon. That's www.builtoregon.com and it's going to be an online magazine about entrepreneur ism in Oregon and the stories the great stories that can be told of entrepreneurial success here in the state, across all industries and across the state and a really cool project. In fact, we've been filming a Kickstarter video, we're going to do a Kickstarter and the last three or four weeks, Chris Cross in the state with a film crew and doing all kinds of fun things. So that is indeed one of my biggest launches right now. And I'm really excited about it.

Melissa Anzman (03:17): Oh, that sounds amazing. And Portland is such a good place to be doing that. There's so many entrepreneurs that I know importantly, and I'm sure, you know, being there even more, so lots of great MIDI stuff there and also interesting stories I'm sure to add to it.

Terry St. Marie (03:35): Oh yeah. There's so many. Oregon has got such a community of builders, makers, foodies, techies. And I've been in Portland now for a little less than four years and I've had a chance to meet a lot of these folks and integrate into the, into the entrepreneurial community here. And we just felt that there was a big need for that. And I'm really happy that my partner and I are going to be able to get those stories out there for people to read.

Melissa Anzman (04:05): Absolutely. So if you could, I mean, this is somewhat of a departure from what you are quote unquote known for online, which we'll get into. But how did the idea of an online magazine come about and sort of, where did this launch start from?

Terry St. Marie (04:22): Well, I'll tell you Melissa. It, it came, it really came from a lot of the activity that I have been doing here. That was almost an extension of, of what I do. As you know, and as most people that probably see me online now, I've been a writer and a blogger for, for eight years. And I write about business and I write about leadership and I, and I had been a corporate executives for a long time. And then I moved to Portland and decided to really take what I've learned essentially to put it sort of in a real simple way, take what I've learned and share it and give it and, and teach right then. And when I learned about was not just leadership, but I had business acumen and experience. And, and so I started when I got here, I started working in the startup community because I wanted to be a mentor.

Terry St. Marie (05:11): So I became a mentor at an incubator and then, and then another incubator and then actually became an angel investor. So I was helping to nurture entrepreneurial businesses. And so I really got absorbed and in that culture here at Melissa and it, and it was such, and it was such a wonderful, fulfilling experience. And so I got to meet a lot of people and, and hear stories. And, and then I would go out and online and try to read more stories about these people and I didn't find them. And so like any entrepreneurial spark, it always comes from opportunity. And my partner and I, who is another person who's been really actively involved in the startup world here. He, we sat down one day and said, you know, we just gotta do this. And I went like one of those things sitting at a coffee shop, but, you know, I drink a lot of coffee as be fitting my name, blogging name. So, you know, I, I, I was like, okay, let's do this thing. And so next thing, you know, we're you know, we formed the LLC and we were blocking out editorial calendars and we decided we need to go out and raise some money. So hence the kickstart everything. So it's really almost a natural extension in a way, because in essence right now, Melissa, I'm more of a mentor teacher, coach person, and this fits really right in with that.

Melissa Anzman (06:38): Yeah. I love that you, to you, it is a direct output of what you've been doing, right. The line and the umbrella, the string is as Pamela slim says the string that ties your story together is consistent for you. And yet it's, it's not necessarily the same quote unquote topic that you started your business as you know, or you started your blog as eight years ago. And so how has that shift for you been compared to how it's been for your audience? Have you seen any, any differences there?

Terry St. Marie (07:13): You know, that's a real interesting question. Because you're right. People evolve and people's perspectives evolve. And at one point in my writing career, I was in a corporate job and I had 1100 employees and I was, you know, directly involved in their lives like every day. And, and then I was writing about it and writing about those experiences and suddenly things changed. And so the question anybody always has to ask is, is, is as your perspectives change and as your your point of view changes in terms of what you want to talk about or what you want to write about or changes with it, and, you know, is your audience, is your tribe, is your community going to really follow along? And I, and I'm, I'm pleased with the fact that I think for the most part my, you know, the people that I've built relationships with, the community that I've built have been just as interested and some of that startup activity and the challenges that are involved with entrepreneurial issues as they are, or continue to be with the leadership issue.

Terry St. Marie (08:25): So the, the beauty of it all is that leadership comes in so many forums, Melissa leadership can be found just about in any sort of social situation, any, any, whether it's in business or a nonprofit or a club, or it doesn't matter what it is. I think people, people want to follow good leaders. They want to be part of something that are bigger than themselves. And, you know, I talk about higher purpose and lot of things I do so that there is a common element there. And it's always about as like you talk about Pam and who I love too. I love Pam slim. So she's listening to this, I love you, Pam. And you know, that's part of his body of work, but there's always a thread, right? There's a common thread that goes through that. And I would say that this moniker that I put on myself lately, call it more human, more human leadership. I think I try to apply that more human to just everything I do. And then I, and I think the audience sort of responds to that.

Melissa Anzman (09:29): I love that because one of the things I get a lot from clients or, you know, comments or emails is I've niched myself so much, but my life has changed and that's not important to me now what, you know, and to see that as long as you build something that is genuine, I think, and has some real value the actual application and the type of thing that you talk about isn't necessarily as important as we once thought it was.

Terry St. Marie (10:03): Yeah. I think that's absolutely true most, so I think that's very well said very well said.

Melissa Anzman (10:09): Thank you. So on that line, and this is a little off topic, but I hope you'll humor me for a moment. I had a great conversation with some other entrepreneurs a few weeks ago about what's more important building an audience or a business. And for you, it's one of this is an intriguing question for me, for a lot of people who are successful online, you know, what is your goal? Is it to build a bigger audience or with this magazine to build a business? Yes.

Terry St. Marie (10:38): Wow. That's a good question.

Melissa Anzman (10:41): Interesting conversation, right? Because I think the answer to that really shapes the way that we approach our online business or presence or what we do with our online choices.

Terry St. Marie (10:56): Yeah. I think Melissa, it's this way for me. I've, I've been at this now, as I said earlier than Christmas day, 2005. And I know that day, because it was the day I went to blogger and took five minutes and set up this thing called the blog. Right. Right. And I wasn't thinking about anything other than this sounds kind of fun. I'm going to try it. So it was with that, that spirit, I suppose, that I started writing. And then I realized that and this is the progression. I think for most people, I realized that I did want an audience because I, I felt then I felt, as I developed a point of view, I wanted to share that point of view. I wanted other people to engage with it and then engage with me. So then even then this is a year down the road where I wasn't thinking money.

Terry St. Marie (11:57): I was thinking audience. And remember I had a full time job. So I wasn't necessarily concerned about monetizing, I guess, is another term, right. Monetizing these things. So I was a little different, I guess, Melissa, where I was able to be more organic. I wanted to have conversations. I wanted to, to build an audience and I, and in a way, and to be honest about it, I, I did want to build some influence because I felt like I had a point of view that should be heard. It was a leadership methodology in a way of doing business. I thought wasn't done enough. And so I had to sort of a passion to get a message out there. So yeah, I think I drifted towards building an audience. And then as the years went by, and then as my company got sold and then I was on my own, and then I faced the decision of, well, okay, I've built an audience now and it's a decent audience and I've gotten some recognition for it.

Terry St. Marie (12:56): And now what do I do with it now, which is kind of probably the opposite if someone was starting today and saying, okay, I'm going to start a blog. Well, I think it just backs up to the initial question of the Simon Sinek, sort of ask yourself the why, right? Why am I doing this? Because if someone sits in front of a computer with a WordPress let's say a WordPress blog frame and says, okay, I'm starting something most of the time, these days, most it's probably going to be it's for some sort of profit motive. It's really because if you're going to just write for the sake of writing these days, you're probably going to go to Reddit or tumbler or so I think it's an interesting world these days compared to what it was for me. So that's a very long, long winded answer to that question, which I don't, I'm not sure I really answered it, but I think for me to really boil it down, Melissa was it was more audience building. And, and now I'm finally, I, you know, I'm writing a book on top of everything else, launching an online magazine, writing a book angel investing, consulting everything. But I, I use it as like that's my home base. And if everybody wants to know who I am and what I think and how I think they go to my blog or they see me on social media. So it's more of a foundational thing for me that I can build businesses around. It's not the, it's not the thing itself.

Melissa Anzman (14:30): I think that's why that's so important and interesting to note because you know, what I have seen is you have a little more trouble doing more when you're only when you sort of start for one reason and then want to shift, right. Because you kind of get off topic. So I love that for you. You know, it started as an influence as an audience and then turned into a paying business, which if you look at a lot of successful quote unquote bloggers, which I hate calling them bloggers, but, you know, cause their businesses it started in a similar way back way back when, right. And so, you know, when you look at a new venture, like your online magazine, you, that can play off of the influence and audience you've already built up, but can also be a profitable business for you.

Terry St. Marie (15:25): Yes. I mean, there's no, you can have, I think you can have your cake and eat it too a little bit when it comes to building an online audience, because it all depends. It all depends on how you cultivate or what you're cultivating. Because in my, in my view, there's nothing, it's all about relationships. And, you know, and I guess I follow the herd the same herd that you follow probably in this sort of line of thinking I've been, Pam's one of these people I know, you know, Mac, our mutual friend is a great networker communicator and they'll always believe that the best way that ultimately you're gonna, you're going to form long lasting business partnerships is through communicating, networking, building relationships, right. And it's like one person at a time, one conversation at a time and your network spreads, it's like tentacles. And then now social media is a, is an enabler of that, but it's not the be all end. All right. And if you just look at it that way and because you just never know, who's going to comment on your blog, you never know who's going to be running into you there, that you form a relationship with and ultimately becomes a customer or a business partner. And that's the kind of open-mindedness I think one has to take when you're going online and you're trying to do something with it

Melissa Anzman (16:47): Kind of, kind of old school, brick and mortar building, right. Of one customer at a time relationships versus let me just get a post that goes viral. Right.

Terry St. Marie (16:59): Call, call me old school, Melissa. That's

Melissa Anzman (17:03): Probably too

Terry St. Marie (17:05): Cool. I came from, I came from a time and here we go, I came from a time where there were no, there were no internet. There was no cell phones. There was no, and that's all true. I say, but time goes by so fast. But my perspective was always, even when I got into the working world in 1982 my first laptop computer in 2003 with a 50 pound weight that had a small little screen and a way to buy a ton. Right. Right. And I was doing SuperCalc or whatever it was and, and nobody ever thought of that device, which was, which is really, when you think about it today, I looked nobody. I did not look at that device and say one day that was going to be a great form of communication. And I was going to build a relationships and community around it, not for a second one second.

Terry St. Marie (18:05): It was a device that was going to do calculations for me. And so at that point I had to rely on my own no cell phones either. So I had to rely on my own ability to do mimeograph sheets and put them on a black bulletin board, talking about parties or, or get together as we would do social events, Melissa, that literally we would mimeograph handouts and post them and hand them out and hand them out at our Hangouts to have a social gathering, which today you go on eventbrite or meetup or startup or whatever, and you can, you can organize the party in 10 seconds. Right? So it's just illustrative of where I came from. It was like person to person conversation by conversation. And I still do that today, Melissa, I take a lot of coffees. I take a lot of meetings. I like talking to people. And that, that, that has to show through to, to relate it back to online presence. I think that has a show through, in your online presence. If someone doesn't look at my site and I hope they do and look at that site and they get the sense of, wow, this is really approachable, natural sort of authentic guy, then I'm not, then I'm not doing it right

Melissa Anzman (19:20): How much? And, and I don't get to talk to a lot of former HR leadership people. So I'm so happy that I have you on to do this, but how much do you think your HR background has influenced, you know, your business, not just in content, but in sort of ideal and structure, and especially with this new launch, how does it play into it at all?

Terry St. Marie (19:48): I think, I think having exposure to hiring and being, you know, being involved in an HR perspective with making those kinds of decisions and, and finding good people to do stuff like that, that informs what we're going to be doing with, with built Oregon, for example, because you know, we're going to have to hire writers. I can't write it all. You know, the three of us can't write it all ourselves. And so, so everything I've learned about fi finding good people and how to interview people and how, and in fact, I just had a conversation, interesting conversation with somebody yesterday when I was, was doing another podcast and we were talking about how people interview and, and how you can tell so much about people, not only the interview, but the interview or about their, about where they're coming from, just, just from a job interview.

Terry St. Marie (20:48): And I think, I think a person who's been through that a lot, either on, on either side of it is a better business person. So to really answer your question, and I think I'm a better business person because I did a lot of interviewing and I, and I, I got involved in HR matters and I, I sorted through what I thought was the best way to find qualified people or qualified candidates and, and really what it boiled down to. And Melissa was this, and I'll share this with your audience as well, because it was a great insight that really came out of this was, is that the one thing I did learn through my HR experience? And then my, my leadership experience was this. You cannot change someone's personality.

Melissa Anzman (21:34): Very, very true. Very true. Yeah.

Terry St. Marie (21:37): Yeah. And people have tried. I have tried, I have made, because I think that came out of a question that someone asked me what was my greatest mistake. And I think my greatest mistake as a leader was hiring the wrong people because I felt like I could change their personalities. Right. And so, so I went about, and with my, with, I guess what I would call somewhat of hubris and tried to change people's personalities, I could not,

Melissa Anzman (22:01): Not effective. Yeah.

Terry St. Marie (22:02): But then I, but then I thought about my mentors, Melissa, and I thought about what, when they hired me. And I said, I started to think back. And I was talking about out loud about how, how they interviewed me. And I realized something that the best interviewers, my mentors, particularly the ones that I ended up really looking up to, they never asked me a business question hardly at all in the interview in an hour interview, they, they focused on where do you think they focused on?

Melissa Anzman (22:32): Well, I mean, if, if it were me, in my experience, you focus on character and culture fit and personality and, you know, willingness and aptitude, the softer skills, the things you can't sort of teach

Terry St. Marie (22:47): Exactly. It was personality. If you can't change, if you can't change personality, then you must hire personality. And then you can, you can always, you could always, everything else is trainable in a way. And so that's the biggest lesson that I take with me as I, as I, you know, the benefit of having that kind of experience so that I can take with me into a project like built Oregon, where obviously I want to find good writers, but I need, I need good personalities that can share the passions that we have for entrepreneurial activity. That, that, that, that know that these are extraordinary people that they're going to be interviewing and talking to, and that, and that's got to come out and I think it, it takes a certain kind of personality of a writer to actually do that.

Melissa Anzman (23:38): Absolutely. So let's stick with the theme of belt, Oregon for a little. And talk to me, you said doing a Kickstarter, have you done one before in the past, or is this your first venture into the kickstart?

Terry St. Marie (23:51): No, this is my very first one. I'm, I'm a novice Kickstarter.

Melissa Anzman (23:59): When is the, I guess, is it called the campaign on Kickstarter? When is that going live?

Terry St. Marie (24:05): Well, we're going to be seeing another draft of the video. We just cut. We just taped the last part of it yesterday. And I'm probably by the end of the end of August, we'll probably have it going. So the month of September is going to be quite a exciting month for us because there'll be a 30 day campaign. And we'll be going around the state trying to rustle up help and support. And it'll be, it's going to be exciting cause I've never done it. And it's kind of scary and I love doing scary things.

Melissa Anzman (24:40): Well, that was really my next question. That's sort of what, along the way, so far, I mean your prelaunch right now. So you're in the throws of doing all of the ready stuff and the busy work and the nuts and bolts of your launch for this, not only the Kickstarter, but for the magazine alone, what has been scary or exciting for you during this process?

Terry St. Marie (25:02): You know, it's always scary before you know, when you, when you lean over the side of the mountain or like, let's say you're going to base jump or you're doing anything that's really scary and you're sort of leaning over the edge and you sort of take that in and you kind of in your breath kind of goes away, right? Like that kind of thing. That's kind of the state that we're in right now. It's like well, are people gonna like this? Are we, are we really are we really gauging the need for this correctly? Are people gonna respond to it? You just never know until you do it, Melissa and that's at any entrepreneurial situation. So I think it's, I think it's very cool that, that in a passion project that's going to celebrate entrepreneur-ism we actually have to be, you know, we're actually in the throws of being an entrepreneur right now. And that's that, that, that calm before the storm, that launch that, that anxiety before a launch. And I, I I'll be honest with it. I have it.

Melissa Anzman (26:11): Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it, I would say, you know, it would be strange if you didn't, right. Because part of, I think what makes entrepreneurs motivated and maybe the stereotype of being an entrepreneur is sexy or something like that, right. Is the, is the fear and adrenaline rush that comes with it, the unknown, the, the thought of being able to, Trailway something that isn't quite there, or hasn't quite been done the way you want it to and, and taking the leap off of the mat.

Terry St. Marie (26:45): Yeah, exactly. And while it's not you know, I'm, I'm, I'm blessed, Melissa. I, I can't sit here and tell you that I, you know, I'm basically betting my career on this or my, or I'm, I've mortgaged my house on this, which a lot of entrepreneurs do and which I'm. So, you know, they, they have an idea that, that they, that that's earth changing and they're willing to take, to make ultimate sacrifices to put themselves out there. And I'm lucky. I, I don't have to do, I'm not, I mean, not, I'm not in a position where this is going to be that kind of a thing. And although I don't want to belittle what it is and the risks that we're taking, but on the other hand, people are taking far greater risks than, than I'm taking. So it always helps me to put it in perspective as well.

Terry St. Marie (27:37): And, but it just, but just to do it even in this way gives me that much more empathy and, and sort of admiration for the entrepreneurial spirit and the risk takers out there and the believers in their dreams. And, and that's, what's most exciting to me is to be able to, to learn more. Cause I, I can tell you when we went out and did the filming, we visited about Oh 15 businesses across the state and met some just awesome, awesome people who, who, who just came up with crazy ideas for, for beer or for, or clothing or, or a food product or a a consumer product, and then went out there and just did it. And, and it did it on a bootstrap too. And, and that's, what's really exciting to me about the,

Melissa Anzman (28:33): Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you have this insight after doing all the interviews and stuff, but I have always found that, you know, there's always someone more creative in such a positive way. Not saying that, you know, there's lack of creativity, but some other, other people's ideas is almost inspiring in itself of how did they think of that? Like that's so out there and crazy, and the belief in that, and then just going after it, I think really remind you like you said, the entrepreneurial spirit, the risks that are being taken, even if there's some that are bigger or smaller than the ones that you take, whether it's you personally, or you as the listener out there it's still very inspiring as far as, you know, we're here to innovate, we're here to create, we're here to make a difference and that's the way we do it.

Terry St. Marie (29:25): Right. And I think, I think there's a you know, higher purpose element to it. I I recently interviewed Aaron Hurst who wrote a book called the purpose economy. And if you're Pam and other people like that, you'd probably be into this. And then he postulates that, that we're, we're entering into a new economic era that's where our businesses, the, the successful businesses of the future are gonna be the ones that truly focus on PR a higher purpose because it because that's the way, that's the way humanity is going. Right? And if, if you think about millennials these days and the new newer generations, and, and, and there's, there's a lot of research to back this up. And then when they ask, when you ask a lot of people, young people be staged about what motivates them, what do they say? They say, it's not money. It's, it's meaning I want meaning in my life, I want a higher purpose. I want to be a part of something bigger than myself. And I think the entrepreneurial, the successful entrepreneurs get that. And I think I'm seeing it. I'm seeing what Aaron is talking about at the ground level, in the new, the new entrepreneurial preneurs that are coming up today. I think by and large, Melissa are, are very much focused on purpose.

Melissa Anzman (30:54): Yeah, absolutely. And I would agree with that and also say one of my biggest questions, or perhaps concerns as a former HR corporate person is how are companies going to deal with that? Right. Cause right now they're not. And, and how is that going to impact, you know, the overall success of, of these large companies, but also the options that are available for people who want to make a difference in that type of environment. So I think it's an interesting, it's definitely an interesting place in our economy of where we're at right now, right. Of the options out there, and this big shift going on of with millennials, not only entering the workforce, but also, you know, in the next few years, so start being managers, right. And how that will impact at a, at a different level.

Terry St. Marie (31:47): Right. And I think that's why I think Aaron's a statement that we're entering into this new type of economy is very true because it's starting to pervade attitudes with people. But then, then that's going to change over to companies where a company is not going to be successful, unless it adopts this posture. Now he's unnatural to say that where we're a company and an old, like you point out an old established company who was not, so purpose-driven more profit driven shareholder return and all that sort of thing. Not, not necessarily that that's bad, but but in order to retain and train the best people they've got to, they've got to provide an environment that creates this higher purpose, and they're not prepared to do that. Well, what's going to happen is they're going to fall behind and they're going to, it may not happen next year. It may not happen two years from now, but I'm willing to, to agree with Aaron when he says 10 years from now, if you're not doing it this way, you're not going to be successful.

Melissa Anzman (32:52): Yeah, absolutely. So that we are surprisingly at the time I feel like I could talk to you for hours on end, so maybe we'll have to do another one of these Kickstarter to see how everything went. But I do want to ask you, I think I have two questions. So first one is what is the biggest challenge that you've encountered already with this new the belt Oregon launch?

Terry St. Marie (33:23): The biggest challenge really we've had is to you know, figure out who our audience really is and how we should market it to them. It's a classic business problem. We think we're solving a problem, a problem being that there's a dearth of good storytelling about entrepreneur-ism here in the state. But then testing that hypothesis has been you know, coming up, coming up with the right editorial bent you know, defining what that magazine is, is probably our biggest challenge. It's not I don't think it's getting it launched per se. It's making sure that the content is going to be what we want it to be. That's our biggest challenge.

Melissa Anzman (34:08): Mhmm, and if you had to give advice to someone, who's looking to do something similar to what you're doing, what's the best advice you could give them

Terry St. Marie (34:18): Follow your heart and your dreams, and don't settle. Don't settle.

Melissa Anzman (34:23): Terry, can you please remind everybody where they can find you online? I'll absolutely be adding all the links into the show notes.

Terry St. Marie (34:31): Well, I'm, I'm at www.terrystarbucker.com. That's my main site. And as we talked about this other project, we do have a splash page up. You can get on our, our, our mailing list, even though if you don't live in Oregon, you can follow along. Our content is intended to be free. It's www.builtoregon.com built oregon.com. And Starbucker on Twitter and you know come talk to me. I'm I'm I just love, I just said it earlier. I love, I love communicating. I love making connection, new connections and talking about what I do and with fellow people that share my, my, my feelings and my passions. And so come on over.

Melissa Anzman (35:17): Absolutely. Well, it has been a true pleasure having you on the show, Terry, and I can attest that you were definitely approachable. One of the best responses I've gotten from a podcast outreach. So I really appreciate that. And it's been such a pleasure having you on the show and hopefully we'll be able to chat again soon.

Terry St. Marie (35:35): I look forward to that and I thank you so much. It's, it's, it's an honor to, when someone wants to chat with me about this stuff, I, I love to do it. So thank you.

Melissa Anzman (35:46): I hope you enjoy today's show with Terry Starbucker Saint Marie. I'm so glad that Mac Prichard put us in touch so I could learn more about his more human leadership and his new venture with built Oregon. If you'd like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to launchyourself.co/session21. Again, that's launchyourself.co/session21. And if you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe on Stitcher and iTunes and leave us a great review until next time.

Melissa Anzman (36:15): Thanks for listening to the launch yourself podcast. Join the conversation at www.launchyourself.co.